We often know what we want, but getting there is the path less known. Today, Dava Guthmiller joins us to talk about the creative process. What IS the creative process? How do we move through that exploration time into an outcome with grace, grit, and acceptance of what our path shows us? Founder and Creative Officer of Noise13 and Co-Founder of Invisible Talks, Dava Guthmiller, knows a thing or two about wading into the space between coming up with an idea and making it a reality. In this episode of the podcast, we’ll be discussing how to embrace all that beautiful mess in between; and she will share her strategies to get through times when you don’t know if what you’re working on and how you're working on it--is working! Also, Dia wants to throw a phrase we all too often use when we’re forging a new path for ourselves. She hates it and makes it clear in this episode. Call the show with a question you’d like coaching on: 341-333-2997 or email us at hello@diabondi.com
We often know what we want, but getting there is the path less known. Today, Dava Guthmiller joins us to talk about the creative process. What IS the creative process? How do we move through that exploration time into an outcome with grace, grit, and acceptance of what our path shows us?
Dava Guthmiller Dava Guthmiller is the Founder and Chief Creative Officer at Noise 13, a brand strategy and design firm based in San Francisco since 2000. From sustainability to diversity, to empathy & humanity, we want to continue to craft more brands that are doing good for people and for the planet. She is also the Co-Founder of In/Visible Projects. This includes In/Visible Ventures and In/Visual Talks, a conference, a collection of events that bring people together over the process, inspiration, and challenges for design & creative professionals. In addition to all of the above, Dava is a mentor & advisor, design & food judge, speaker & moderator. She has been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, San Francisco Mag, HOW, Communication Arts, and Print Magazines.
As you can see, Dava Guthmiller knows a thing or two about wading into the space between coming up with an idea and making it a reality. In this episode of the podcast, we’ll be discussing how to embrace all that beautiful mess in between; and she will share her strategies to get through times when you don’t know if what you’re working on and how you're working on it--is working!
Also, Dia wants to throw a phrase we all too often use when we’re forging a new path for ourselves. She hates it and makes it clear in this episode.
Dava (Day-Va) Guthmiller Dava Guthmiller is the Founder and Chief Creative Officer at Noise 13, a brand strategy and design firm based in San Francisco since 2000. From sustainability to diversity, to empathy & humanity, we want to continue to craft more brands that are doing good for people and for the planet.
Dava is also the Co-Founder of In/Visible Projects. This includes In/Visible Ventures and In/Visual Talks, a conference, a collection of events that bring people together over the process, inspiration, and challenges for design & creative professionals.
Dava is also a mentor & advisor, design & food judge, speaker & moderator. She has been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, San Francisco Mag, HOW, Communication Arts, and Print Magazines.
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Unknown Speaker 0:02
Whether they're your clients, your teammates, or whoever you're getting feedback from, or
Unknown Speaker 0:06
your boss for that matter,
Unknown Speaker 0:07
or your boss, if you're not putting all that feedback through the lens of the strategy and the creative brief or the why it becomes personal, it becomes a personal opinion. And you can have 100 personal opinions, but that doesn't make any one of them the right answer.
Unknown Speaker 0:47
Hello, everyone, welcome to the Dia Bondi show a big podcast for women with goals. I'm Dia Bondi, and I'm here for you on a mission to help you ask for more and get it to resource your dreams so you can get to your goals faster and have a blast doing it and I'm so thrilled to have it with me today. Arthur Leon Adams the third I was
Unknown Speaker 1:09
I didn't know where I was gonna go. You almost
Unknown Speaker 1:10
sound like you forgot my name for a second.
Unknown Speaker 1:13
I was like, which way do I go? Do I go baby? Or do I go Arthur Leon Adams, I get a little stuck sometimes. Right? Right.
Unknown Speaker 1:18
Nice to see you. Good to see you. And I see that you're from the zoom. You know, we record these over the Internet that you're in a different spot. today.
Unknown Speaker 1:26
I am in my studio and Berkeley is being used for a sheet space for somebody recording a TED talk. And so I'm actually coming to you from my bedroom. Which is great. Although I have to say I'm kind of edgy today because it's like a new setup. I don't know if it's gonna be good. I'm kind of mad about it. But I can't tell right before we started recording I was telling you how edgy I kind of feel even though I tried to handle my business clean up my room make it kind of cozy, set up my deal, go for a walk all the things but I still feel edgy, because it's just like, it's not right. Like my pants don't
Unknown Speaker 1:55
fit. Right.
Unknown Speaker 1:55
Right. Right. Right. kind of uncomfortable in a new context.
Unknown Speaker 1:58
Well, you should maybe change your mindset about it and think of it like you're on MTV Cribs. Do you remember that show? And you can show the bedroom like this where the magic happens?
Unknown Speaker 2:08
Yeah, it's more like here's where I fold clothes. Yeah, it's more like that.
Unknown Speaker 2:13
Well, it's been a little bit since we've recorded one of these.
Unknown Speaker 2:16
That's right. So happy I am even though I'm kind of edgy and mad about it. Whatever, it is just kind of mad today. I'm glad to be doing this. It's nice to hear your voice.
Unknown Speaker 2:25
Yeah, you too. So what else we got going on today?
Unknown Speaker 2:29
Well, we're gonna have a we're gonna have a guest today, which is super awesome. That's right, David, Gus Miller, just a second. But before we get into our conversation with her, I wanted to kind of throw a phrase under the bus that I'm really sick of hearing and I don't like
Unknown Speaker 2:42
All right, go off queen.
Unknown Speaker 2:43
Okay, that for me, here's the here's the thing. Fake it till you make it is bullshit. I don't like this phrase. You know why? Because all y'all who are listening right now are trying to do something new. You're trying to move your way to your toward your goals. You're trying to work it out. You're making decisions, you're feeling your way through, you're planning, you're trying stuff. And in some cases, you might be on shaky ground. And it's easy for us to say I don't know, I'm just faking it till I make it. But you know what, you're not faking it. You're not you're not faking, you're actually doing it. And I'm really sick of like, under hearing women, and folks, you throw around this phrase, like, like we're faking it, like it's not real. And you know what, whatever you're doing even if you're doing it on shaky ground, even if you're even if you're wading your way through something brand new, even if you're doing it while you're unsure. You are doing it. So I just want to flip that thing on its head and say it's not faking it till you make it. It's doing it until you make it. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 3:41
And maybe we can even come up with a rhyming version, like, do it till you break through it or something.
Unknown Speaker 3:47
Yeah, exactly. That's perfect. I just want to like, we all just need to give ourselves a little bit of credit for doing stuff that we don't know how to do, but we're doing it. It's not faking it, right. So anyway, that that's my teeny, tiny mini micro rant today. And it's actually kind of interesting, because it's going to tie to what we're going to talk about with David Guf, milliner today, around sort of that wading through the dark, you know, that space between when we have an idea about what we want, or we've identified it a goal for ourselves, or, you know, we have an outcome in mind and getting from here to there can feel like a dark zone, but it's also it also can be a beautiful exploration. So
Unknown Speaker 4:29
yeah, before we get to our guest, I just wanted to remind everyone that if you like the show, and if you want other people to hear the show, you should subscribe rate and review. You can follow us on social media on Instagram at the Dia Bondi show, and you can you know, tell your friends about it and just help the DIA body show reach more people.
Unknown Speaker 4:51
Tell your friends about it, tell your friends
Unknown Speaker 4:52
about it, your friends. And you can also if you have a question, you can call us at 341333299 Evan and leave a message and maybe we will play your question on a future episode.
Unknown Speaker 5:04
So good. We'd love to hear from you all. And you know what in I've probably said this in other episodes, but when I give talks or my keynotes and my workshops, you know, I hear from folks all the time that the most valuable thing that they get out of it, of course, the ideas that I shares super valuable, but what really matters is when folks have a chance to listen to other people, you know, workshop, their big questions around how to make their big moves, that, that opportunity to see yourself in someone else's challenge someone else's opportunity, someone else's journey is wildly powerful. So when you call in the show with your question, we are going to address it, we're going to workshop it on the show with love and curiosity, and you know, and care, and you are making it possible for someone else to see themselves in your journey and to learn from you.
Unknown Speaker 5:54
Yeah, so I mean, I think what we're saying is share the podcast save a life, that there it is. So today, our guest is David Guf. Miller, She is the founder and chief creative officer at noise 13, which is a brand strategy and design firm based in San Francisco since 2000.
Unknown Speaker 6:11
Yes, and Dava is also the co founder of invisible projects, which is both the invisible ventures and invisible talks, which I had the privilege of being one of their inaugural speakers at their inaugural event in San Francisco, pre COVID. And the invisible projects is a conference and a collection of events that bring together people over the process, inspiration and challenges for design and creative professionals. So we're really happy to have her with us today. She's also a mentor and advisor, a design and food judge, because he doesn't want to do that. And she's a speaker and moderator and she's been featured in Forbes, Huffington Post, San Francisco magazine, how and communications arts and print magazines. And she's just, she's somebody that I always look to for not just creative inspiration, but like she does a lot of things, you know, she's always out exploring and making something new and involved with a lot of different things that, that, that touch a broad range of interest. And I just, I've always respected since I met her maybe six or eight years ago, respected even from afar the work that she does, and the way she does her work. So so happy to have her today.
Unknown Speaker 7:24
Yeah, another heavy hitter on the podcast. Come on now. Dave, I'm
Unknown Speaker 7:30
so glad to have you here today. Hello,
Unknown Speaker 7:32
hello. Oh, my goodness,
Unknown Speaker 7:35
it's so great. So listen, I would let folks understand. So two things you sort of, you know, I see you having I mean, you do so much different stuff. Yeah, you're so involved in the world of both the creative process and the outcomes of that, in the world of design. And I helped me help the world understand a little bit about what your life is, is as a creative officer, and what had you found in the invisible project.
Unknown Speaker 8:04
So as a creative officer, I mean, I run nois 13, which is a branding and strategy, design agency. And I have been doing that for 21 years, Oh, my God. And my role as noise 13 has changed hugely over that period of time. I mean, I went to school for design. You know, I graduated as a graphic designer. So I was one of those designers in the beginning. So even as I was running the company, originally, I was also a designer. I was also, you know, creative director, I was also sales. And over time, my role has changed pretty significantly, I no longer get to spend the majority of my day designing, unfortunately. So I have to use my creative brain in new ways. Most of that is in this space between creative strategy for brands and sort of really helping our clients understand the difference that brand will make in their company in the long term, and supporting my designers and the design team that I have, you know, to help them grow, right? Honestly, I'm always a little bit more split than that, because I'm still doing sales, and I'm still doing, you know, all of these things. I'm currently looking for an office, you know, so in a small agency, I think that you always have many, many hats, and you have to be prepared for you know, the ultimate multitasking challenge
Unknown Speaker 9:38
and What had you What had you bring invisible projects into the world?
Unknown Speaker 9:40
Yeah. So my business partner in in invisible is aryana aurland. And she and I were both part of the IGA Design Week, she was on the board and she had asked me to help out with the, like the main launch event and we went through And it was a great experience when we realized that we needed something deeper and more meaningful for ourselves. And we also realize that, you know, we have 40 plus years experience between the two of us. And we're always behind the scenes, we're always the one supporting everyone else versus being out in front. And I think later on to that, really wanting to spend more time to meet other creative peers, and be inspired by people who are different than us. Made us really realize like, Well, you know, what, just do it ourselves. Right? Like, we can totally do this. The first time was a completely an experiment, right? So everything down to the branding, where we were inspired by literally dipping stuff from the dollar store in paint, which is how we came. I remember that I remember that. Yep. It was so cool. Yes. And you were one of our speakers that year. And, you know, so the first year was an experiment. And it's, it was so fantastic that we decided to kind of keep it up. And we did smaller events. And we did that conference annually. So we have now done that for four years. So four annual conferences, and this January we did that virtually, do you
Unknown Speaker 11:21
still perceive it as an experiment? Or is it changed this year was
Unknown Speaker 11:25
an experiment again, because we went from an in person 300 person event here in San Francisco to virtual, so we had to re learn and rethink how that process went.
Unknown Speaker 11:37
I love that. So I remember when aryana. First, she approached me your first year and invited me to speak and she talked about the words that really stuck in my heart was about you know, invisible talks being a place where we can talk about, you know, what it means to forge our own ideas into the world in a way that is uniquely ours. And I just, you know, that feels like such a powerful and vulnerable place at the very same time, I couldn't not say no to participating in whatever level I could. And I just, I love this idea that things, you know, it continue, even though you know what it is, and you know what impact you want it to have, it continues to be an experiment, because, you know, we're always in a state that we're always in a state of change and forging forward. And that's really what I wanted to talk to you about today was you know, to start a conversation talking about what I'm thinking about is like the the dark zone that that space between an idea, and it's made state and for our, you know, listeners for our audience, it's a goal, whether it's, you know, in a traditionally achievement style goal, or an experiential goal or an expertise goal. And you know, the time between the idea that that's the thing I want and getting there, you know, that can feel like the Dark Zone, but it can also feel it can also be a beautiful experience if we let it be. And if we I think that if we invest in it and you know, when I was thinking about how that connects to maybe the creative process is a place where you are you intentionally go into the I'm calling it the Dark Zone, maybe you have a different term for it. But I'd like to start by asking like, what do you look for when you go from the idea, the idea to creation of a design that you ship in the world? Like what? what do you look for as you move through that process as a longtime designer, and somebody who facilitates other people's creative processes? Well,
Unknown Speaker 13:31
yeah, I mean, with invisible we call that process inspiration and challenge, right? Is that messy middle stuff that gets you to the outcome? But yeah, I mean, on for noise 13. I mean, we are creating brand systems and graphic design executional pieces. And every project and every deliverable is different. But I think the thing that really ties them together. And the thing that I look for as a leader of that is, how many times and how many ways can we go back to the strategy or the core of what that idea was? You know, when you're thinking about a brand, your brand strategy is the why, like, why are you even doing this in the first place? What is the, you know, the How are you different from everyone else? What is your brand personality? What is your goal, and every execution? If you keep coming back to that, it helps you through that messy middle piece, right. So I look for ways that we can continually go back to what we call the brand strategy or creative brief or your why statement, right? With the conference. It's the first time it was like, we want to talk about process inspiration and challenge and we want a mix of people and backgrounds. We want a mix of experience levels. And those were sort of our guiding principles. And every time we wanted to add new shit, because we add a lot of stuff, we have a hard time saying no, both of us going back and saying, does this meet our criteria of why we're even doing this in the first place?
Unknown Speaker 15:15
I love this as I think about the women who the women and you know, everyone who's listening to this podcast, you know, as they move into that messy middle, you know, between an idea of something and it being born into the world, like when we get when when you listener get stuck, when we get stuck to go back to our own why and, and who we actually are. And I think of brands, you know, I'm not a brand strategist, but I think of brands as like, it is an entity it is a it is a it is a person and a personality, a set of values, a set of beliefs, it is like its own, it is its own self, right. I think about you know, when we get stuck in our journey between an idea and it being born into the world go back to go back to like our why and who we actually are so that we can go forward in a way that is actually aligned to who we are. And we're not, we're not stepping into or adopting a self that isn't actually true to us. Oh, yeah. Which is a great a great way to lose and have Things Fall Apart later.
Unknown Speaker 16:14
Yeah, not Oh, yeah. And values are super key to that. I mean, we talk about values a lot in branding. But as a person, you know, knowing what your non negotiables are, really helps you, you know, in reaching those goals, but then also, when you are doing those big asks that you tell people to do all of the time, it helps you validate why you're even asking, right? It's the same as if you're a brand and you're asking somebody to buy your product or use your service. Like why should they care? You know, if you don't know why they should care, and you don't know who you are, before you walk out the door? How do you expect other people to react to that or understand?
Unknown Speaker 16:54
So in the creative process, you know, when I was when I came to invisible talks that first year, you know, we had folks that talked about so many different things, you know, as you said, you had a really broad set of folks who practice the creative or or engage in them in the messiness of the creative process across hardware design, you know, in Fine Arts in writing, as designers like just across the board, you know, what happens to do you observe teams, or individuals as they go to build a brand? Or does in their design in the in the process of creating a design lose themselves in it? And how do you find your way back? Yeah, I
Unknown Speaker 17:34
mean, losing yourselves in any design or creative process? I mean, I think you've even mentioned it as like those pitfalls. I think, as creatives, we want things to be perfect, right? We want there to be an answer. And I think that there's that one of the biggest Falls is pitfalls or challenges that we run into is overthinking it, or over testing, or, you know, you There is something about the creative process, even in a professional creative environment, not art. You know, not all design is an artistic endeavor, you know, you are solving a problem. There is this crossover of research and understanding and testing that you can do, and just trusting your gut. Like, you know, if, if you want something to be new and unique, and really push the boundaries, you have to let go of the testing at some point and just say, this is different. And I have to trust the fact that if I want this, and I feel that this is right, like, you know, if you build it, they will come and there's a little I mean, with invisible, we definitely had that, right. Like, we needed that connection to people, we needed that deeper conversation. And we're like, okay, we need this, other people might need this. So you have to just trust sometimes what you're feeling, use all your research and all of your expertise as part of the system. But in order to take chances and make something new, you have to trust yourself, and how do you know it's working? The feedback. I mean, you know, for me, feedback is key. You know, putting it out there and world and invisible is definitely one of those big wins of my life. But one of the things that, you know, I would recommend to everybody is that when you are getting positive feedback on your project, that you or on the work that you're doing, write it down, remember what was working, remember why, you know, your ideas are good. I mean, we have this thing with invisible. I don't know if we've ever shared this with you. But every year after we start getting feedback and text messages and you emails from people, we save all the good stuff we we listen to, and we take to heart and we make changes based on the critical feedback. But the good stuff we put into a document called the ball of love, so that every year, we can kind of go back to it. And remember, like, all this hard work, all this stuff that we went through, we did something great, because look at this fantastic feedback. How do you use your ball of love? I'm
Unknown Speaker 20:25
super curious, do you use it as a kickoff document at the beginning of the next cycle? Like how do you like does it doesn't just die in some digital file somewhere? What
Unknown Speaker 20:34
do you do with it? Yeah, I think there's a couple of reasons why we do it. One, we do it at the end with our team, like the people who've supported us, our volunteers, partners, whatever. It's this great way to get quotes and like, say, look at all the amazing work that we did. But it's also really fantastic when we get into that messy middle part of remembering, you know why we're doing it remembering why people need it, right? So it's the same as if you have a product or service with a client where, you know, you need to keep that good feedback in mind, like, what is it that you're doing that serving your client or serving your customer that they need? And that they appreciate? Like, don't lose track of that piece of the puzzle? Right? So
Unknown Speaker 21:21
what's really Yeah, yeah, it goes back to that, like, when you get lost in the middle or you lose yourself, you can't find what's resonant, having your ball of love available to you can maybe be a reinvigoration point when you're in that, like that messy and difficult middle, what I what's interesting about that, as well, as we think about getting from here to there, and we maybe we you know, we start out on our journey, whether it's an event that you're producing, or you know, a career change you're making, or whatever the journey is, how do we know we're on track? How do we know what we're doing is working, the strategies we've identified are working, you said as feedback, right. But in that process, pretty soon we can get feedback, we can get feedback to the point where we can be all of a sudden pulling ourselves off track. So all of a sudden, we've been given so much feedback that what we want isn't what we we've been talked out of what we want anymore. We've been all of a sudden, we're on a trajectory that doesn't lead us to the outcome that we're after. So as we go on our journey, what do we hold on to? And what do we let go have in the face of the feedback that we might get from the world? Like the the experience of getting into that messy middle?
Unknown Speaker 22:30
Yeah, I mean, I think holding on to the original why or the original strategy. And using that as sort of this coming back point, I mean, you sort of brought it up right with, especially with client feedback and a creative process, I love my client, I love them. And they, I think about them as partners, but whether they're your clients, your teammates, or whoever you're getting feedback from, or your boss, for that matter, or your boss, if you're not putting all that feedback through the lens of the strategy and the creative brief, or the why it becomes personal, it becomes a personal opinion, and you can have 100 personal opinions, but that doesn't make any one of them the right answer. So, you know, holding on to that core, why holding on to what you're doing, you know, it might shift a little bit. But I think that's something that, especially in design and a creative process, you have to hold on to that strategy, and that that creative brief that you agreed on in the beginning. And I think the things that you need to let go of as, especially as a creative person is, and I hate to say this, but you have to let go of control sometimes. You know, yes, you're the expert. And yes, you have this expertise, and you want it to be something fantastic and beautiful. And especially if you're an independent person, but part of the creative process is collaborative, you're collaborating with the audience you're speaking to, with the client that you're working with, with your team, with your boss, you know, whatever it is, and I think that all of those people bring insight and expertise to the playground, right? And if we don't work together, so letting go of like, my way or the highway, because those outside pieces of collaboration and insight are also where we find sparks of inspiration or, you know, something that maybe you didn't think of, so you have to let go just a little bit in that control aspect. And, you know, I think most designers have this problem.
Unknown Speaker 24:52
Yeah, I think of that, you know, I'm not I'm not an artist, although I you know, I I sort of identify as a writer type, you know, creative mind where were my ideas that need to make their way into the world often show up in curriculum development and in and in writing. And as I think about, as I think about letting go, I use the language I think to myself, I whisper to myself, like letting go means letting something new in, you know, when it opens a gate for something new to come in, that I couldn't see. So this sort of act of always, you know, opening to what else could be included, also, to your point holding on to the lens of your wise so that you're not letting things in that take you off your pathway in a way that doesn't get you where you want to go, is really critical. So, you know, I I'm really interested to and you know, there is a process that you engage in as you develop I'm sure a brand identity or you know, the the system that supports a brand in the world. And there are also people who move through that process who bring themselves to the table. So how do you think about the difference between here's how it's done. And here's how I do it.
Unknown Speaker 26:05
Yeah, the, for me, the here's how I do it is a starting point. It, that sentence in of itself leaves it open to change, to new ideas to building upon or improvement. It also says, I'm open to collaborating with you, like this is how I do it, how do you do it? Right. So it's, uh, I love that statement. That's definitely how I work at noise. You know, this is my company, and I'm responsible for it. But everybody here implements and changes and affects our processes. And, you know, ways that we can improve. This is how it's done to me should mean that this is something that's been tested and proven, and is the most efficient when there's like safety and protocols and regulations that you have to think about. But it can also close off those ideas for improvement and change. So if there is a, this is how it's done, mentality, make sure that that's because there's a reason that it has to be done that way. Otherwise, you could be stuck, right, and you're not leaving it open to doing it a better way.
Unknown Speaker 27:36
I think about it as like, this is how is done is the protocol. And this is how I do it is the personalization of that protocol is like a conscious breaking of the rules that don't apply this time or a, you know, the the way in which you remain open as you move through the protocols. I mean that, you know, I have a lot of women come through my workshops, and through this content where you know, I really want to help women resource their dreams that they can get to their goal faster. And one of the questions always is, how should I do it? And my answer is, well, are there other known ways in which it is done? And then how do you do it? They can be related, unrelated or exactly the same, but there is no ultimate, you know, there's just, there's like a framework, and then there's an adoption and an adaptation of that, that we can personalize so that we can bring our own meaning, our own worldview, our own lens, our own desires, our own, you know, way we see things our own creative spirit, our own the things we see in the world to it. No, that's a,
Unknown Speaker 28:37
that's a good way to think about as well. I mean, I think, for me, I'm taking on that lens of, you know, I'm in the middle of onboarding new employees, right. So there's, this is our process, or this is how I do it. But please, if you have improvements, please make them right. So right, I think it's that choice of language as well, when you're, especially when you're talking to, you know, new hires. Right. And also, I
Unknown Speaker 29:01
think about so I grew up in a in a dance studio, and like, there is there is a way that you do bar work and a ballet class before you go to the center, here's what it is it's always play. And then it's tonda, isn't it? You know, it's like that. And how I do it is, you know, what I pay attention to, as I move through the bar work to get to the center is different. You know, some some folks are like, you know, they're going to use the plays in this way, I'm going to use the plays and that way, we're still doing the same process, but how we're doing it to get to the center work is uniquely ours. So what do you think, you know, Dave, as you as you continue to constantly both be super strategic and, you know, building brands that are tied to business outcomes, but also engaging in sort of the mass of the creative process to develop that thing, you know, to bring it into the world. What is the most rewarding thing you've produced in your life and career and what makes it so well invisible?
Unknown Speaker 29:54
For sure, you know, and I would say the ball of love every time that feeling that we Get, right. It's a, I mean, that is something we do on the nights and weekends, and it is a bear and we don't get paid for it and it a passion project 100%. So for sure, invisible is one of those things, but thinking back about projects, you know, and specifically with clients that we've done through noise 13 I think one of the most rewarding projects that we ever did, or that I ever did, I'm not gonna say we because I'm not, I'm not, I'm gonna step back to when I used to be part of the design process a little bit more. We had this client personality hotels, and, you know, they needed to rebrand they had six hotels at the time, they were all boutique, totally different different names, different styles, different everything. And we had been hired to do a rebrand for the parent company. And part of that process was a touch point audit. And I don't know if anyone else has done this, but it's where you just kind of yet, you go to the place you pick up the materials, yes, see what's out there? What does it feel like? What are they doing? What are they saying? And, and this was the first time that we had done this, but we literally wallpapered our conference room with all of their stuff, from pictures of the hotels to all of their materials, and we literally wallpaper the whole place. So for the kickoff meeting with the client, they came into this room of themselves. mess, it was awful, it was like every brochure was a different size on a different kind of paper, there was maps on the back of thing, 17 different maps, like the experience to the customer was that every single one of those held hotels were their own thing. And they were not a family, and it was not pulled together. And, you know, whatever, we named one of the hotels, we rebranded a few of them, we brought them all into a system. At the end of that project, we did the same exact exercise where we put all the new stuff in a room. And seeing all of those hotels have their own identity, but being part of a family. And part of a system that brought them together like that was so rewarding, because one we it was the biggest project we had taken on at the time. And it was a ton of work. And it was beautiful. But it was really successful. And we had, you know, in the rooms, they have like those little feedback forms, right. And part of what we had done was added a few questions to that feedback form. Because brand is this thing you can't it's very hard to quantify. But we added a few questions to make it like Do you know the other hotels in our group? Like, would you say that, you know, blah, blah, blah. And through that, we were able to actually quantify the work that we had done that people were more aware of the rest of the family than they were before. But I think it was just that before and after was so dramatic, and it was so complete, that it was just a very, very good feeling and very rewarding. Thinking back to the ask like an auctioneer, I could tell you right now, we did not charge enough money for that
Unknown Speaker 33:15
brand. Beautiful. So what what that story reminds me of and folks who have listened to earlier earlier episodes, will know that when I think about you know, since I launched project as like an auctioneer, what I've seen is that we asked for things that fall into four and actually sort of a fifth bonus cap category, it's, you know, we ask for things that help grow around money, we ask for more around authority, being the author of our own destiny, or owning decisions and influence. You know, we ask for things that give us more influence in our networks, on stages, etc. So we can reach out, we can use that influence to reach our goals faster. And then the fourth one is balanced. And you know, when we think about balance, especially in the world of you know, women in work, we automatically it really easy to default to like work life balance. And what I think of in balance is a lot more about bringing our internal selves and our external context more into alignment and imbalance with one another. So who we are and the way we live, who we are and the things we do who we are. And, you know, the context in which we work and play and love and live are more in alignment. And what I hear in that project is that you brought that brand more into balance with it with itself that it was expressing itself maybe in a way that was consistent with who it actually was, and that there was a recognizable internal experience of what it was to be there and an external expression of it so that it could live in the world as a unified, coherent self. Yeah, yeah. And
Unknown Speaker 34:44
I think it was. Yeah, it absolutely brought balance to them. But it's, it's also those types of projects that allow you to prove that you know what the hell you're doing. Oh, yeah, right. cuz it was it was the biggest project we had done. And it was like the fact that somebody had trusted us to do it. Obviously, we over delivered and we undercharged, but I think it was proving to myself that we were capable to do a project on such a large scale, and so successfully, that was just super rewarding. So
Unknown Speaker 35:19
that's, that's beautiful. Yeah, having something concrete you can point to that says, See, we can do this. It worked. Beautiful. All right. Well, I love having you having you here. And my last question is, what is your wish for women who are forging their own ideas into the world,
Unknown Speaker 35:37
this is probably advice that I need to listen to, even more often than I already do. But I would say be open to receiving support. I think women do not ask for enough help. And I mean, that not like, not that we need help. But the world, especially in business is there to support you, whether it's money from the bank, or investors, whether it's, you know, delegating more to your team, whether it's asking your partner at home for, you know, to make the dinner, you know, whatever it is, I feel like women are better multitaskers. And we have this thing of just like, Oh, yeah, I can just do it all. And I can do more. And, you know, I have this problem all the time myself where I just keep stacking it on and being open to support and open to asking for the support that you need, so that you have the energy to give back to everybody else. Beautiful,
Unknown Speaker 36:40
beautiful. David, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm so glad that you said yes to coming on to the Dr. Bondi show a big podcast for women and everybody with goals. So we can help them get there faster with the beautiful creative contributions that you and invisible toxis and the invisible projects is bringing into the world. And for you to share time with us today is greatly greatly appreciated. Super fun.
Unknown Speaker 37:03
Thank you so much for having me.
Unknown Speaker 37:11
All right, that was great. So glad to have so glad to have David today. Like for me, the things that really stood out were two things one was, you know, I love her story about the about the hotel branding exercise, or the hotel branding project that they did, but the thing that really stood out for me was when she talked about doing this doing an audit. And I think so many of us can do an audit, you know, in our in our lives and careers and businesses and just take a look around and see what's working, what belongs what doesn't belong any more. So that we can also have a more cohesive, more aligned more, you know, I don't know, recognizable entity around the thing that we're trying to build in the world, it's really easy to drag what we did five years ago forward, when it doesn't serve us anymore. It's really easy to like, get feedback from somebody at some point that we've attached to what we think we should do, or what we should pursue that actually we've maybe outgrown or outlived, or is just not relevant to us anymore. So I love the idea of doing an audit. And I don't know how you would put it in a room for yourself, I could imagine that just like any other, you know, vision board or, you know, some kind of visual representation of you know, of how we take stock in our lives in our careers could be could be, could be, could serve. And then the second big idea for me was this notion of like, asking for things that are off the menu when she shared that, you know, one of the important investments she made was to take a risk and not take cash, but to take part cash and part stock in an early project that she did. And and I think that's true, it's really easy for us to, you know, not color outside the lines or just not even see what else we might ask for to help us reach our long term goals. So I love both of those things.
Unknown Speaker 39:05
Nice. Yeah, what got me thinking was you you were talking a little bit about something we talked about a couple episodes ago, which is the difference between, you know, the way it's done and how you do it, or I can't what was the exact phrasing?
Unknown Speaker 39:20
That's right, like, what's the difference between Oh, this is how it's done, which is fair, like, there are things where, like, this is how it's done. And here's how I do it.
Unknown Speaker 39:29
Right. And you guys had slightly different definitions of that, which I thought was interesting. And I, I was thinking about her definition of it, which I think applies for me a lot when I'm doing filmmaking stuff, which is there's there is a way that certain things are done, and most of them have to do with like, safety and, you know, just time constraints and just practical things about filmmaking. But then all the other things that people might say this is how it's done. I disagree with Yeah, like, I don't I don't necessarily not follow them sometimes, but I don't think that they're necessarily hard and fast rules sure about how something that's done, how you set up a shot, how you frame something. I mean, the coolest stuff is when people break those rules, I think you just you have to know them to break them.
Unknown Speaker 40:14
100% they're some of the most intriguing stories that we hear about people, you know, building beautiful things in the world or achieving, you know, recognizable things that we care about, you know, writing a best selling novel, you know, living a life that is unconventional, whatever the thing is, is like the the path to getting there is often quote unquote, not the way you do it. It's the way they did it. Yeah. So when, you know, if you're listening to this episode right now, and thinking to yourself, I have a goal this year, or I want to make a thing, I want to change my life, I want to make a thing in the world, I want to produce something, I want to change careers, I want to build a business I want to whatever it is, you know, we can ask, we can find out how is it done? And then we can ask ourselves, okay, good. And how do I do it? Yeah. How does it make sense in my worldview, and based on what my sensibilities are, where my courage lies within me where you know, the existing skills that I have the skills that are easily acquirable, my network, etc. That is exactly what I mean, when I say like, we can get what we want. And often our greatest power is in leading with who we truly are, right?
Unknown Speaker 41:24
Yeah. Cool. All right. All right. All right, people so nine done
Unknown Speaker 41:28
Nice to see you. Nice to hear you.
Unknown Speaker 41:29
Yeah. Bye, everyone. Bye, everyone.
Unknown Speaker 41:35
This Podcast is a production of Dia Bondi Communications and it's produced and scored by me are thoroughly on Adams the third, you can like share rate and subscribe at Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Find us at dia body calm or follow us on Instagram at the Deobandi show. Want to shoot us a question for the show. Call us at 341-333-2997 and maybe you'll hear your question answered on a future episode.